This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘‘Challengers’: Zendaya serves up tennis and sexual tension’
Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking about the buzzy new tennis film Challengers. This film at its core is a love triangle. At one corner is a tennis star named Tashi, played by Zendaya, whose career-ending knee injury has turned her into her husband’s coach. Over the years, Tashi has made her husband Art, played by Mike Faist, into a Grand Slam world champion. But Art is off his game, so Tashi has entered him into a lower level challengers tournament just to get his confidence back. At that tournament, they are confronted by the third in the triangle, which is his ex-best friend Patrick, played by Josh O’Connor, who’s also Tashi’s ex-boyfriend. What ensues is a lot of tennis, conniving sexual chemistry and sweaty little shorts.
[VOICE CLIPS FROM ‘CHALLENGERS’]
Art’s got his coach, Tashi Donaldson, who also is his wife.
I’m playing for both of us, Tashi.
I think, maybe you’re disturbed by the fact that she could have been into someone like me.
When we were teenagers.
When we were teenagers.
Hey, I love you.
I know.
Lilah Raptopoulos
This movie is directed by Luca Guadagnino of Call Me By Your Name fame. It has attracted tremendous hype for its steamy trailer, and critics so far are loving it. So let’s get into it. I’m Lilah and I’m dancing to Nelly’s “Hot in Here” from the very beginning to the very end. Joining me from London is the FT’s deputy arts editor, our film expert Raph Abraham. He is also a big tennis fan. And today he’s trying to sell his signed racket for a free hotel room. Welcome, Raph.
Raphael Abraham
Thank you. Good to be here.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Nice to have you. Also here with me in the New York studio, we both know she’s playing for both of us. It’s our US sports correspondent, Sara Germano. Hi, Sara.
Sara Germano
Hi, vámonos.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Okay, let’s get into it. Why don’t we start with just top line? What did you both think? Raph?
Raphael Abraham
Yeah, I thought it was, I thought it great fun, you know, a very enjoyable ride. I thought the whole thing was hugely entertaining. There was great chemistry between the three leads, Zendaya, Josh O’Connor and Mike Faist. And the whole thing kind of really use tennis in a clever way of, you know, combining the kind of erotic love triangle that exists between them and then how those tensions play out on the tennis court. So, I definitely surpassed my expectations for a tennis movie because, as much as I love movies and tennis, I think tennis movies as a genre, they’ve never quite, you know, hit the mark. So I think this, this does a lot better in that regard.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s great. Sara, what about you?
Sara Germano
I loved it. I thought it was fresh. I thought it was original. I thought it was different from almost any movie I’ve seen recently. You know, this movie was many things. It was about tennis. It was about sex. It was about relationships. It was about desire and all of that. I thought it did a really good job of, depicting, like a woman’s point of view and dating almost in the ways that women are, turned on by and repulsed by, their partners and in certain ways. So that was great. And then I would just say that, yeah, I kind of agree with Raph’s point. Like, I don’t actually like, I write about sports for a living, and I don’t like a lot of sports movies. They can, well because they often, delve into areas that are trite or cliche or human inspiration. And this is not that.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. I had a lot of fun. It was one of the rare movies that I thought I would see that again in theaters. It was just fun.
Sara Germano
Agree.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I heard the director, Luca Guadagnino, explain it like the rush of a cold, cold soda on a very hot day. And that is how it felt to me too, like sweaty and fun. I thought it was also very good at, like, staying small. It was about like these three characters who are basically the only three people, mostly in the movie. Like they’re the only people that anyone needs to care about or know anything about. And so you’re really just dragged into their relationship. It’s like intense, but it has a light touch. Like, not everything needs to be explained. There’s some sort of like homo erotic elements, but it’s like, doesn’t have to say like, this is homo erotic. It’s kind of sexually fluid. Nothing is a big deal. We’re all just sort of in this game with them. And I found that really fun. I had a great time.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Can we talk a little about the music? So the music is, by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, and it’s basically just house music, and it’s like very intense. I tried to listen to it when I was writing an article yesterday, and I had to turn it off. It was really quite stressful. But it was really fun. It was, it was like even in the scenes where there are just people sitting and talking, it sort of started to build in this sort of high stakes, high energy music. It almost like told you what was happening to them emotionally, even if not a lot was happening on the screen.
Sara Germano
It was pulsing.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, it was pulsing.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Sara Germano
I didn’t know. I did some reading before going into the movie, but did not know that it was a Trent Reznor soundtrack, and it made perfect sense when I heard it that fact afterwards, because I was like, oh, this was reminiscent somewhat of his work on The Social Network.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes, he’s done a ton of scores. He’s also done The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Gone Girl, Patriots Day. Actually, those two are bandmates in Nine Inch Nails. What about you, Raph?
Raphael Abraham
Yeah, I enjoyed it. I mean, you know, we first get that kind of imposing, pounding electronic score. You kind of think, oh, God, this is, you know, this is kind of a bit much, but it really does work. And it does enhance the kind of woozy atmosphere of the whole thing, right. And you kind of it’s like being sort of locked in sort of a sweaty, hot, sweaty club dance floor atmosphere, right in this kind of sweat dripping, you know, off the characters in the tennis scenes and then the love scenes and the sauna scene and all of that. So it’s kind of I think it definitely adds to that heady atmosphere and that’s complemented by that, the cinematography, which is full of these kind of, you know, lingering close ups and slow mos. And so and it’s a yeah, it’s extremely kind of intimate film.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes, it is an intimate film. And I would love to create a visual of this film for listeners by talking about the buzziest scene in this movie. It’s in the trailer and it’s not too deep in. So it’s not really a spoiler, but it’s where the three of them are young. Their love triangle is just sparking. The two men have been friends for a long time, and they’ve met Tashi at this tournament, and they’ve somehow in a very unappealing way, the men have kind of wooed her back to their hotel room, because they have beer. And in that love triangle, you really see that she’s in charge. [LAUGHTER] And, I think there was an expectation that that was going to be this like crazy threesome and it and it wasn’t, but it sort of was emotionally but maybe not physically. How did that scene land for you guys?
Sara Germano
I would say, it did a great job of capturing all the different emotions that go into like a sort of teenage sexual encounter, but I also think the trailer conveys it in one way, and it does set up a certain kind of expectation. And in the film, it delivered in a completely different way. It had, a different punch line than I was expecting. And I thought that that was good. Like, I was okay with the fact that it went in a slightly different direction. And it was it was charged and it was funny. And I don’t think it was I don’t think it came through in the trailer that this was going to be really funny.
Raphael Abraham
Yeah. I mean, I kind of loved the fact that she was clearly so much more in control of the situation and kind of came across as much kind of more worldly and mature than these two guys who were kind of doofuses. But I kind of love their puppyish enthusiasm when they realise what’s happening here, potentially. And, and I, I think I must say, I think kind of credit has to go to the director, Luca Guadagnino, on this because he’s really good at working with young actors, and he seems to, you know, he’s kind of. I spoke to him a few years ago for a series he did called We Are Who We Are. And, you know, he talked about sort of being obsessed with young people and youth and his own, you know, youthful adventures. And I think that’s kind of really captured in those scenes of, of them as juniors and, and then, of course, you know, we see them later on and everything. Life’s more complicated as you get older and it kind of gives . . .
Lilah Raptopoulos
And they get a lot less fun though.
Raphael Abraham
There’s a lot less. Yeah.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
So this is a unique sports film in that it’s not inspirational. It’s not based on a true story. It’s not really about underdogs, but it does have tennis. And you both know about tennis. And so I want to hear your thoughts. What do you think. Was it a good tennis film?
Sara Germano
I thought it was a great tennis film. Let’s just talk about the definition of a tennis film, right. There are other films that depict tennis or are largely about tennis, like Wimbledon, like Match Point. And to make something a good tennis film, you don’t necessarily have to depict the sport in the most accurate way. But I think this film succeeds. Tennis is actually the sexiest sport. It is the most interpersonal. It is the most confrontational. It lives on suspense, you know, between the players trying to anticipate the next shot, you know, taking your opponent one on one, that kind of thing. And Challengers does a very good job of depicting that and amplifying what makes tennis tennis. We could sit here and depict, you know, the technique of everyone’s backhand and their serve, and there are people who will do that. Zendaya actually trained with Coco Gauff’s coach. And you know, her body double she’s spoken in interviews about how intensely she studied not only real professional tennis, but from actual professionals themselves. So on two levels, I think the skill of the player, the skill of the actors, rather, was tremendous. And then I think the direction, the writing, and the cinematography of the film did such a good job of conveying the emotion of the sport.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah.
Raphael Abraham
Yeah. I mean, I would agree, I think, you know, it’s been fun to see kind of online tennis forums and, you know, real hardcore tennis nerds poring over every detail, critiquing you know, whether they got this scoreboard right in that backdrop, right, and whatnot. But I mean, on the whole, as you know,as a tennis fan, yeah, it looked pretty convincing. And, one thing I thought was great was the fact that a lot of this takes place at, a kind of small, low level challenger tournament right? This is not, you know, this is not sort of tennis as this glamorous world of the big Grand Slams and the million- dollar stakes and whatnot. It’s kind of the the rough and ready end of tennis right? Which is something less seen on screens, but I think kind of adds to the stakes of what’s going on here right. Because Mike Faist’s character is this six-time Grand Slam champion who’s been reduced to playing these lower level tournaments. And so, you know, the stakes for him are immediately high because, you know, he’s trying to kind of claw his way back to, you know, the higher levels. And for Patrick, his rival, you know, he’s he’s kind of just scraping by trying to make a living.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Sleeping in his car.
Raphael Abraham
Sleeping in his car, yeah, can’t scrape enough money together to pay for a hotel. And I think that’s a side of tennis that a lot of people are not aware of, you know, kind of casual fans.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I wanted to ask you, both of the characters, like reminded you of anyone in particular the stories did like, would someone like Art do a challengers cup like, is that a thing that would ever even. .
Sara Germano
Yeah for sure. I think not only in tennis like you see this in other sports, especially individual sports, if you’re rehabbing an injury or you’re, you know, just going through a rough patch in your career, you know, you just want to do, like in track and field, they would call it a rust buster. You just got to get out, you know, and compete a little bit and feel what being, you know, on the court, on the track, on the pitch, if you will, and just get back into that mindset so that that part is actually quite authentic. And Raph made a really good point, that one thing that Challengers does very well is depict the economic realities of the sport. You know, we think of tennis, there are so many superstars, that we can name who are, you know, millionaires and they have Rolex campaigns, but the vast majority of players are struggling to make a living.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. OK so for the last part of the conversation, I would love to dig a little bit deeper into interpretations because I left the film thinking, OK, I love that, but what was it really about? And I think where I landed is, that it was pretty simple. It was about desire. It was about like three people who really all want each other, and they’re unsatisfied when they just have one of them and they act out a lot of these romantic and sexual desires through tennis. In an early scene, a young Tashi expresses to these men that they don’t know what tennis is and that tennis is a relationship and that for 15 seconds, you know, in the last game she played, she and her opponent went somewhere beautiful together. And there was something just very erotic in that whole thing for me. Like, they’re just good tennis is good sex. She’s chasing that. And so I almost didn’t even think that it was about power, for me, with them. If it was about power, it was also within that relationship.
Raphael Abraham
Yeah. I think, I mean, I think it’s definitely, you know, it’s all about all of those things. I think the one sort of weak point of the film is how it resolves or how it fails to resolve. It seemed to me to not really end on any conclusive note. Not that I, you know, need all films to be wrapped up in a bow. Absolutely not. But the whole thing was such a kind of, you know, build up to something. And then the something that we get at the very end, to me, I have to say, felt like a little bit of a cop out. And I think.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s interesting.
Raphael Abraham
Maybe is why it’s hard to put your finger on exactly what this film is about. I didn’t come away with it with the sort of profound feeling of, oh, this was really about something. I have to say. Ultimately it was it was really enjoyable, but it was like high gloss kind of soap opera, which, you know, I don’t think this is the most deep and meaningful film that, the director has made. I mean, he didn’t write it, but, you know, I kind of see, this is, you know, very high class, kind of trashy, dare I say it, kind of soap rather than high art.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Interesting. Do you agree to disagree?
Sara Germano
I have such a strong disagreement.
Raphael Abraham
Oh good.
Sara Germano
Which is. I take all of Raph’s point, but I had such a different read on the film, I thought that the ending actually did do a very good job of setting something up for the audience. Like a really, really impressive dramatic callback, that everyone just held their breath over and it was like, is it coming? Is it not coming? Is it happening? Is it not happening? Oh my God, that was really powerful. And I thought that the somewhat non resolution of the film played into the ultimate point, which is that sometimes you don’t get everything that you want. I thought that this was a film about really almost being in your 30s. This is the rom com for being in your 30s that we need because at that point, like, none of these people are young anymore. They are past their point of being the ingenue. You know, Tashi has a career-ending injury, and she has psychology around the loss of potential for herself. You know, Art is at the end of his career trying for one last kind of swing.
Lilah Raptopoulos
But they’re tired.
Sara Germano
But tired. And Patrick is like, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, like, you know, you’re sad and pathetic sleeping in your car in your 30s, like, give it up, man. So I thought seeing all of them through the lens of, like, you don’t always get what you want. I understand why this film works. Because it’s playing with that sense of suspense.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Interesting, OK. I mean, I think you’re both right. I don’t know. Like, how does, I was thinking in this movie, like, well, this is a really fun movie to watch. Like, it was they all were really very good. There were some scenes that were sort of silly, like Tashi, slow motion walking at one point, like cat walking in slow motion. And her Cartier jewelry is jingling and she looks really hot. And I’m like, this is ridiculous. But they know it’s ridiculous. And so there’s a part of me that’s like, I don’t know, is this a movie that should win awards? I don’t know, like and so I could think of it and be like, ah no, it’s too silly for that. But I can think, well, everything was a deliberate choice. So maybe, I just don’t know.
Raphael Abraham
Well, I mean, I definitely agree what you were saying. You know, the kind of, you know, definitely amped things up, you know, these kind of extreme slow mos and kind of close-ups. You know, it was knowingly using all those techniques and really going for it in an exaggerated camp sort of way. And it didn’t shy away from that. But, you know, going back to what I think Sara saying earlier about, I do I definitely agree that this is very much a film about endings and kind of your body, you know, it’s about bodies in both respect, the body is something that can give you all this pleasure, but then also that it can kind of give out on you. And, you know, the fact that she has this career-ending injury and that the two guys are getting older and kind of conscious of the clock ticking, which is I think that’s one of the things that gives sport and, and especially tennis at the moment, like this real sort of pathos is watching these great champions nearing the end of their careers. I mean, we’re watching Rafael Nadal at the moment, sort of trying to scrape through a few more wins and Andy Murray as well, Serena and Roger Federer, you know, and I think that’s definitely in that in the film. And that’s probably part of what gives it emotional weight as well.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah that’s true. I agree. My knees are creaking too. Raph and Sarah thank you so much. We will be back in just a minute for More or Less.
[TECH TONIC TEASER PLAYING]
Welcome back for More or Less, the part of the show where each guest says something they want to see more of or less of culturally. Sarah, what do you have?
Sara Germano
So my more is, I’ll give you my more, which is that I want more of this program called Inside the NBA. Right now we’re going through the NBA playoffs, and the NBA is actually in contract negotiations over their next, broadcast right. So who’s going to be showing the NBA in the years to come is kind of an open question. But there is a program on TNT called Inside the NBA. It features Shaq and features Charles Barkley and, a few other announcers. And it is so funny. These guys have been going for broke for the past three days in a row. They’ve had a running bit about the city of Galveston, Texas. Like it makes no sense. It’s really just very good entertainment. None of us know what’s going to happen, with basketball, broadcasts in the years to come. But just keep Shaq and Charles Barkley on the air, please.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Okay. Inside . . .
Sara Germano
Inside the NBA.
Lilah Raptopoulos
All right, we’ll put it in the show notes. Raph, what about you? What do you want to see More or Less of?
Raphael Abraham
I’d like to see more movies like this, in as much as they are, you know, totally original stories, scripts, ideas with new characters that we, you know, not seen before, rather than kind of recycling of endless long running sequels and series and franchises and intellectual property. I mean, we had a piece last week in the FT about Jerry Seinfeld’s new movie, Unfrosted, which is about the creation of Pop-Tarts. And it’s, you know, it feels like we’ve kind of got to the bottom of the barrel, where, you know, any kind of, everyday retail product is now kind of fodder for making a movie. So, you know, the fact that this is an entirely original story, you know, it’s not based on anyone’s life story. This is not the, you know, Serena Williams’ story or the Bjorn Borg story or whatever. We kind of know, more or less, you know, what happened in their lives. This could go in any direction. That’s the kind of the joy of art and an artistic licence is you can you can go anywhere and do anything with it if, if just if you have an original idea. So more original ideas, please.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Totally agree. I’m going to say, less worrying about small talk. I say that because I was just at a wedding where there was a lot of small talk. And I also just read our colleague Jo Ellison’s column from last week on how to start a conversation. And her point was that, like, when you’re having a conversation with a stranger, the other person isn’t judging what you’re saying. They’re just grateful that you’re trying. And everybody just wants to get to the good part. You know, wants to like, be engaged in a really good conversation. And I really think that’s true. And I think that a lot of people feel kind of paralyzed, by the idea that they’re going to be judged. So, yeah, less worrying about that stuff. Just, jump in, talk about what you want to talk about.
Sara Germano
Life is short. Let’s just get to it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Get to it. Raph and Sarah, this is a real delight. Thank you both so much for being on the show.
Sara Germano
I will play tennis with both of you any time.
Raphael Abraham
Excellent. Looking forward to that.
Sara Germano
Yeah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Come to the US Open, Raph. Thank you both.
Sara Germano
Thank you.
Raphael Abraham
Thank you, this has been a pleasure.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. Take a read through the show notes. We have tons of great links from you, including the FT’s review of Challengers, Raph’s interview with 22-year-old tennis sensation Jannik Sinner, and a great piece by Sara on female sports fandoms. Every link that goes to the FT gets you past the paywall. Also, if you like the show, we would love if you shared it with any friends that you think might like it too, send it to a group chat, drop it on your Instagram story. All of that really helps support us. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is my talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely weekend and we’ll find each other again on Monday.
